That quote must be from someone who's never been around lusty animals and doesn't know biology. Most species, including sheep, have a breeding season once a year when they become very horny and want to mate. It's normal for them to have one pregnancy per year, although if they lose the first pregnancy or offspring early enough, they might rebreed and try again.
Small prey animals like mice or rabbits are more likely nonseasonal and breed year-round as conditions permit. They have to keep up with predation.
Large animals are rarely nonseasonal breeders; humans are weird that way. The cryptic fertility is even more bizarre.
Ha, yeah. There's real problems with the mass farming industry but some animal advocates clearly know nothing about the animals they feel so strongly about, and could stand to go physically interact with a cow or something. ...after signing a liability form, because I suspect the odds of them injuring themselves somehow is concerningly high, and that shouldn't be on the farmers' heads.
Part of the trouble is people latching on to one piece of information -- that some industrial operations overbreed their animals -- and make some broad assumptions from there... but so many people just don't know about animals and don't realize what they don't know. I've seen a video where someone take their chickens (ones with a bit of hook on their beak) to a city parade event and one of the attendees asked if it was a hawk.
As someone who grew up fairly rural -- though not on a farm myself -- and have been an animal facts nerd since I was old enough to read, the ignorance and lack of deeper curiosity can feel staggering to me.
>>There's real problems with the mass farming industry<<
Well, sure. Overcrowding is probably the worst of it because that affects all species. The food is often sub-optimal. Lacing it with antibiotics harms both the animals and the humans who eat them -- and wouldn't be necessary in human conditions.
A much darker side that few people know about is the breeding problems. All formal breeds are inbred to some degree, but in animals that have popular studs like cattle, it gets much worse. The hormones for artificial insemination mess up the body. And they're just not bred for health, but for production. Some homesteaders won't buy chicks from meat breeds because they are so prone to break legs due to improper growth speed. Commercial turkeys can't even mate naturally. It's appalling.
>> Part of the trouble is people latching on to one piece of information -- that some industrial operations overbreed their animals <<
Push production is an issue with some species but not others. Commercial chickens, for instance, have a rather short production peak due to overload. Cat and dog breeders sometimes overdo it too -- one litter a year is normal, provided the female is in good health; but more than that is pushing it, and sometimes they will come into heat a second time if they caught early enough in the season. Bad idea.
Dairy animals, however, MUST be bred every year in order to get milk. You dry them off -- which has apparently become a dangerous process due to overproduction of milk -- then they give birth and freshen again.
Some other animals, it doesn't matter if they have sex or not. Chickens lay with or without a rooster; you only need him if you want to hatch eggs. Wool sheep and meat sheep only need a ram if you want to raise lambs.
>>so many people just don't know about animals and don't realize what they don't know.<<
Yep.
One of the things they don't know, but should because it's fucking obvious, is that humans don't keep animals that are of no use. It's how we lost almost all the gaited horses and most of the drafts, plus a majority of heritage breeds in every species. Most people don't want a cow or horse as a pet. So if people stop eating meat, eggs, milk, stop wearing leather, etc. -- all those millions of animals will not suddenly gain better lives, they will cease to exist. So what they're really campaigning for is the near-total eradication of livestock that humans spent over 10,000 years developing. For fucksake. >_<
>>As someone who grew up fairly rural -- though not on a farm myself -- and have been an animal facts nerd since I was old enough to read, the ignorance and lack of deeper curiosity can feel staggering to me.<<
Same here. My mother raised chickens a couple of years when I was little, but decided it wasn't worth the bother. I drive past cows and horses all the time. Amish territory still has chickens foraging in the yard, and we buy eggs from there when we can. I see livestock at fairs -- this past summer, Effingham had rabbits, that was fun to see.
Oh man the chickens that grow too large to support themselves. That's definitely been on my mind, since I want to get chickens if I can get a house with a yard like I want. I've got a lot of thoughts about what sort of breeds I want but not a lot of decisions made yet. Except that I think I do want to spring the extra money for at a couple Ayam Cemani. The price tag on those chicks is pretty steep if you're considering chickens from a money-making perspective, but since I'm wanting "pet birds that also give me eggs", a $50/per cost isn't unbearable.
and I remember someone saying that Americans don't really know what cow tastes like, we know what angus tastes like.
re: one litter a year This actually came up a couple times on the Snake Discovery channel I watch? They don't like to double-breed their snakes because it's as hard on snake bodies as any other animal to overproduce young. Especially with the need to produce calcium for the eggs. But some of their snakes preserve sperm and double-clutch even without a second breeding. And they lost one of their valued females to it. She died not too long after her second clutch.
near-total eradication of livestock Yeah it would be so fricken descructive. Can the farming industry stand to have a lot of improvement? Yes. Should we tear down the whole thing and throw away all our livestock with the bathwater? Hell no.
>>Oh man the chickens that grow too large to support themselves.<<
It is disturbing.
>> That's definitely been on my mind, since I want to get chickens if I can get a house with a yard like I want. I've got a lot of thoughts about what sort of breeds I want but not a lot of decisions made yet.<<
There are plenty of heritage breeds to choose from.
If you want to hatch eggs, you'll need a broody hen or an incubator. Silkies are generally considered among the best hens for this, but there are others.
You might also consider creating a landrace adapted to your local conditions. To do this, start with a mix of breeds that have the traits you want, let them cross with each other, then keep the best. You can get a head start with a mix -- some places sell "Easter Eggers" that lay different colors of eggs, a good indicator of genetic diversity.
>>Except that I think I do want to spring the extra money for at a couple Ayam Cemani.<<
They are spectacular, but start with something cheaper. If what you like is that all-black look, consider black silkies who also have black skin.
>> and I remember someone saying that Americans don't really know what cow tastes like, we know what angus tastes like.<<
Sadly so. And almost nobody breeds for flavor anymore, just for speed to harvest.
>>But some of their snakes preserve sperm and double-clutch even without a second breeding.<<
Nothing to be done about that. Hell, some are even parthenogenetic.
>>Can the farming industry stand to have a lot of improvement? Yes. Should we tear down the whole thing and throw away all our livestock with the bathwater? Hell no.<<
The most constructive things to do are: * Raise your own. * Join a Community Supported Agriculture program; some offer eggs, milk, meat, honey, etc. as well as produce. * Shop at farmer's markets where you can talk to the farmer. We met a biodynamic farmer this summer! * Buy products from pastured livestock. * Support heritage breeds.
I dunno about silkies. They're cute and charming and good brooders, but I've dealt with them before and their fluffy feet get... nasty. They pick up everything in the yard.
Those black silkies do look appropriately goth, though.
For pure beauty I do love barred chickens, like the plymouth. It's a bit painful to consult the options too early when I'm just teasing myself with what I can't have. :p
I'll probably start with chicks or young adults when I do start, and look into eggs once I have a small flock. I've seen a few farmers on Youtube hatching eggs and it looks like box brooders are more reliable, even though they don't have the romance of letting a momma chicken raise her own. I do wonder though how it effects flock dynamics to raise babies separately from the flock before mixing them in. I know it has a lower rate of chick loss, but I wonder how it changes the social interactions when chicks grow up without adult chickens as role models? Mark that down for experiments I'd fund if I was rich and could be a patron of arts and sciences. :p
Man Easter Eggers don't just have pretty eggs, the chicken itself has such a soft and friendly look.
Shop at farmer's markets
I really should go to the farmer's market more. It's just hard to leave the house as-is, and getting out early on a Saturday morning? XD But it would be a great way to get cheap and higher-quality beef, because I know there's at least one person there who sells ground chuck... which is my favorite cut for burgers... I've just been buying grocery store 80/20 ground beef and it's... it's fine. It's okay. But chuck is better. And I'd be supporting local farming, as you say.
>>I dunno about silkies. They're cute and charming and good brooders, but I've dealt with them before and their fluffy feet get... nasty. They pick up everything in the yard.<<
Point.
>>For pure beauty I do love barred chickens, like the plymouth.<<
Agreed. I like speckled ones too.
>>I've seen a few farmers on Youtube hatching eggs and it looks like box brooders are more reliable, even though they don't have the romance of letting a momma chicken raise her own.<<
It's good to have different tools available. Box brooders are good for:
* Tiny or fragile chicks, and things like guinea keets with the lifespan of a glass hammer.
* Rare or expensive chicks.
* When you want to maximize numbers above all else.
* If you have bully birds in the flock that might try to eat the chicks.
>>I do wonder though how it effects flock dynamics to raise babies separately from the flock before mixing them in.<<
Introductions can be tricky and tedious. The young birds may lack important survival and social skills.
Also, you don't get the natural selection as much. You have to identify the best and worst birds yourself, then cull them by hand. When a hen raises chicks, the weak and foolish ones usually die off, leaving the best to grow up.
>>I really should go to the farmer's market more. It's just hard to leave the house as-is, and getting out early on a Saturday morning? <<
Check your area for afternoon and evening markets. They've become quite popular here. Sure, the biggest is on a Saturday morning but it's an hour away and closes at noon and isn't as good as it once was. There's a nice one quite close to home, and two others about an hour away that are worth hitting too.
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timeasmymeasure
*laugh*
Date: 2025-12-25 09:37 pm (UTC)Small prey animals like mice or rabbits are more likely nonseasonal and breed year-round as conditions permit. They have to keep up with predation.
Large animals are rarely nonseasonal breeders; humans are weird that way. The cryptic fertility is even more bizarre.
Re: *laugh*
Date: 2025-12-26 12:59 am (UTC)There's real problems with the mass farming industry but some animal advocates clearly know nothing about the animals they feel so strongly about, and could stand to go physically interact with a cow or something. ...after signing a liability form, because I suspect the odds of them injuring themselves somehow is concerningly high, and that shouldn't be on the farmers' heads.
Part of the trouble is people latching on to one piece of information -- that some industrial operations overbreed their animals -- and make some broad assumptions from there... but so many people just don't know about animals and don't realize what they don't know. I've seen a video where someone take their chickens (ones with a bit of hook on their beak) to a city parade event and one of the attendees asked if it was a hawk.
As someone who grew up fairly rural -- though not on a farm myself -- and have been an animal facts nerd since I was old enough to read, the ignorance and lack of deeper curiosity can feel staggering to me.
Re: *laugh*
Date: 2025-12-26 02:02 am (UTC)Well, sure. Overcrowding is probably the worst of it because that affects all species. The food is often sub-optimal. Lacing it with antibiotics harms both the animals and the humans who eat them -- and wouldn't be necessary in human conditions.
A much darker side that few people know about is the breeding problems. All formal breeds are inbred to some degree, but in animals that have popular studs like cattle, it gets much worse. The hormones for artificial insemination mess up the body. And they're just not bred for health, but for production. Some homesteaders won't buy chicks from meat breeds because they are so prone to break legs due to improper growth speed. Commercial turkeys can't even mate naturally. It's appalling.
>> Part of the trouble is people latching on to one piece of information -- that some industrial operations overbreed their animals <<
Push production is an issue with some species but not others. Commercial chickens, for instance, have a rather short production peak due to overload. Cat and dog breeders sometimes overdo it too -- one litter a year is normal, provided the female is in good health; but more than that is pushing it, and sometimes they will come into heat a second time if they caught early enough in the season. Bad idea.
Dairy animals, however, MUST be bred every year in order to get milk. You dry them off -- which has apparently become a dangerous process due to overproduction of milk -- then they give birth and freshen again.
Some other animals, it doesn't matter if they have sex or not. Chickens lay with or without a rooster; you only need him if you want to hatch eggs. Wool sheep and meat sheep only need a ram if you want to raise lambs.
>>so many people just don't know about animals and don't realize what they don't know.<<
Yep.
One of the things they don't know, but should because it's fucking obvious, is that humans don't keep animals that are of no use. It's how we lost almost all the gaited horses and most of the drafts, plus a majority of heritage breeds in every species. Most people don't want a cow or horse as a pet. So if people stop eating meat, eggs, milk, stop wearing leather, etc. -- all those millions of animals will not suddenly gain better lives, they will cease to exist. So what they're really campaigning for is the near-total eradication of livestock that humans spent over 10,000 years developing. For fucksake. >_<
>>As someone who grew up fairly rural -- though not on a farm myself -- and have been an animal facts nerd since I was old enough to read, the ignorance and lack of deeper curiosity can feel staggering to me.<<
Same here. My mother raised chickens a couple of years when I was little, but decided it wasn't worth the bother. I drive past cows and horses all the time. Amish territory still has chickens foraging in the yard, and we buy eggs from there when we can. I see livestock at fairs -- this past summer, Effingham had rabbits, that was fun to see.
Re: *laugh*
Date: 2025-12-26 02:36 am (UTC)and I remember someone saying that Americans don't really know what cow tastes like, we know what angus tastes like.
re: one litter a year
This actually came up a couple times on the Snake Discovery channel I watch?
They don't like to double-breed their snakes because it's as hard on snake bodies as any other animal to overproduce young. Especially with the need to produce calcium for the eggs.
But some of their snakes preserve sperm and double-clutch even without a second breeding. And they lost one of their valued females to it. She died not too long after her second clutch.
near-total eradication of livestock
Yeah it would be so fricken descructive.
Can the farming industry stand to have a lot of improvement? Yes. Should we tear down the whole thing and throw away all our livestock with the bathwater? Hell no.
Re: *laugh*
Date: 2025-12-26 03:19 am (UTC)It is disturbing.
>> That's definitely been on my mind, since I want to get chickens if I can get a house with a yard like I want. I've got a lot of thoughts about what sort of breeds I want but not a lot of decisions made yet.<<
There are plenty of heritage breeds to choose from.
https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/heritage-chicken-breeds-zm0z14fmzkin/
If you want to hatch eggs, you'll need a broody hen or an incubator. Silkies are generally considered among the best hens for this, but there are others.
You might also consider creating a landrace adapted to your local conditions. To do this, start with a mix of breeds that have the traits you want, let them cross with each other, then keep the best. You can get a head start with a mix -- some places sell "Easter Eggers" that lay different colors of eggs, a good indicator of genetic diversity.
>>Except that I think I do want to spring the extra money for at a couple Ayam Cemani.<<
They are spectacular, but start with something cheaper. If what you like is that all-black look, consider black silkies who also have black skin.
https://www.dunlaphatcherypoultry.com/product/black-silkie-bantam/
>>since I'm wanting "pet birds that also give me eggs"<<
https://www.hgtv.com/outdoors/landscaping-and-hardscaping/chicken-breeds-ideal-for-backyard-pets-and-eggs-pictures
https://grubblyfarms.com/blogs/the-flyer/friendliest-chicken-breeds
https://greatergood.com/blogs/news/heritage-chicken-colored-eggs
>> and I remember someone saying that Americans don't really know what cow tastes like, we know what angus tastes like.<<
Sadly so. And almost nobody breeds for flavor anymore, just for speed to harvest.
>>But some of their snakes preserve sperm and double-clutch even without a second breeding.<<
Nothing to be done about that. Hell, some are even parthenogenetic.
>>Can the farming industry stand to have a lot of improvement? Yes. Should we tear down the whole thing and throw away all our livestock with the bathwater? Hell no.<<
The most constructive things to do are:
* Raise your own.
* Join a Community Supported Agriculture program; some offer eggs, milk, meat, honey, etc. as well as produce.
* Shop at farmer's markets where you can talk to the farmer. We met a biodynamic farmer this summer!
* Buy products from pastured livestock.
* Support heritage breeds.
Re: *laugh*
Date: 2025-12-26 04:21 am (UTC)Those black silkies do look appropriately goth, though.
For pure beauty I do love barred chickens, like the plymouth. It's a bit painful to consult the options too early when I'm just teasing myself with what I can't have. :p
I'll probably start with chicks or young adults when I do start, and look into eggs once I have a small flock. I've seen a few farmers on Youtube hatching eggs and it looks like box brooders are more reliable, even though they don't have the romance of letting a momma chicken raise her own.
I do wonder though how it effects flock dynamics to raise babies separately from the flock before mixing them in. I know it has a lower rate of chick loss, but I wonder how it changes the social interactions when chicks grow up without adult chickens as role models? Mark that down for experiments I'd fund if I was rich and could be a patron of arts and sciences. :p
Man Easter Eggers don't just have pretty eggs, the chicken itself has such a soft and friendly look.
Shop at farmer's markets
I really should go to the farmer's market more.
It's just hard to leave the house as-is, and getting out early on a Saturday morning? XD
But it would be a great way to get cheap and higher-quality beef, because I know there's at least one person there who sells ground chuck... which is my favorite cut for burgers... I've just been buying grocery store 80/20 ground beef and it's... it's fine. It's okay. But chuck is better. And I'd be supporting local farming, as you say.
ETA: Also! Happy holidays!
Re: *laugh*
Date: 2025-12-26 04:44 am (UTC)Point.
>>For pure beauty I do love barred chickens, like the plymouth.<<
Agreed. I like speckled ones too.
>>I've seen a few farmers on Youtube hatching eggs and it looks like box brooders are more reliable, even though they don't have the romance of letting a momma chicken raise her own.<<
It's good to have different tools available. Box brooders are good for:
* Tiny or fragile chicks, and things like guinea keets with the lifespan of a glass hammer.
* Rare or expensive chicks.
* When you want to maximize numbers above all else.
* If you have bully birds in the flock that might try to eat the chicks.
>>I do wonder though how it effects flock dynamics to raise babies separately from the flock before mixing them in.<<
Introductions can be tricky and tedious. The young birds may lack important survival and social skills.
Also, you don't get the natural selection as much. You have to identify the best and worst birds yourself, then cull them by hand. When a hen raises chicks, the weak and foolish ones usually die off, leaving the best to grow up.
>>I really should go to the farmer's market more.
It's just hard to leave the house as-is, and getting out early on a Saturday morning? <<
Check your area for afternoon and evening markets. They've become quite popular here. Sure, the biggest is on a Saturday morning but it's an hour away and closes at noon and isn't as good as it once was. There's a nice one quite close to home, and two others about an hour away that are worth hitting too.
>>ETA: Also! Happy holidays!<<
And to you. It's been good here.