>> In this case I meant "something" as in, any player model at all. :p Because you need a bare minimum of "able to see where other players are in the world" unless you want things to get confusing fast.<<
Good point.
>> But yeah, customizability is optional here. I'd at least want vague humanoid shapes ala Totally Accurate Battlegrounds, <<
Then you'd need a way to distinguish them for different players, so some ability to customize would make sense.
>> but I do so love me a detailed character creator... It's hard to balance "I'd love to have this" vs "would this actually contribute to the game?" and "is it worth the time investment?". <<
Well, your enjoyment is one reason. Widening the player market is another.
Then consider how detailed it would need to be vs. how much time. What are some mods that would be simple? How complicated is that very nifty slider? And it costs nothing to make all the options available for any character. Do we need 36 versions of facial hair? Probably not, but 3-6 would be nice.
>> But no it was "hey, the next time you want to teleport someone out of danger in a hurry you don't want to risk having the wrong reflexes". Which like. Fair.<<
Totally credible threat. With Fetching, you could pull someone's organs out, unless the way magic works in a setting makes it hard to reach through someone else's personal energy. But Teleporting is delicate -- you have to get everything right at tremendous speeds or *splat*.
In fact over in Terramagne, it's one of the superpowers most prone to injury or fatality at manifestation for that reason. There are combat teleporters, but not many, and even most of them are just snatching people out of a scrum and dumping them away from it. Very very few actually use it to hurt anyone, let alone remove body parts. And part of that is the culture, because The Teleport is one of the most cohesive subcultures and very serious about presenting themselves as safe so society doesn't pitch a pogrom and try to murder them all.
>> On the other hand context can shape which of our reflexes gets expressed, and the physical difference in situation can matter a lot. On a couch with a control in your hand, wrecking cars by moving the thumbstick isn't going to translate as badly to sitting in your vehicle strapped down with your seatbelt, using a steering wheel.<<
True, that helps.
Mostly what I was thinking about was the visual effect on reflexes, where a split second can make a huge difference.
>>And ordinary life situations can mess up your reflexes too. I once almost walked out into traffic because my brain triggered my "crosswalk time" function too early. Thankfully I barely even lurched an inch before stopping myself.<<
Oh yeah.
>> Oh no y'all playing at the "professor" level while I'm sitting here in the 201 classes not exactly feeling the urge to graduate. :p
Sure, but you're the one with the video gaming experience who's learning to code. Two people with different skillsets can accomplish more than either alone, or even two people with the same skills.
>> I'd argue unless you're doing some very basic, abstract gameplay, it's hard not to put your politics into games. If you're not doing it thoughtfully on purpose, you're doing it subconsciously. And that isn't always bad, but it means you're not putting consideration into what elements of your politics that you express.<<
To some extent this is true; people have habits of thought and interaction. If you build a society from the ground up, however, you can use a list of questions like "How does this society do X?" Most people have at least read enough history to be aware that cultures do things differently, and what some of those differences are. Like some are more peaceful or more aggressive, some are rigidly gendered and others not, etc.
Where I see a problem is, basically, proselytizing. The sexy binary is one example, which is largely thoughtless but sometimes deliberately nasty. Some trans inclusion is elegant and some is just awkward. If you want to include something, it has to feel natural and not either tacked on or just waving it in your face.
Take feminism. Bitching and harping about inclusion just irritates people. Go build a game where players can design any character they want and the NPCs have randomly generated gender per role. Action, not just talk. You don't have to say "women can do anything they want" if you build game that appeals to multiple genders and includes female characters in diverse roles.
I've been an activist since I could talk. I've done all the marching, letter writing ... nagging. But the most effective method I've found to get people saying "I did the thing" is plain old storytelling. I write scenes that make people want the things. And it's no accident that flip phones resemble the old Star Trek communicators. Hell, I've got the Elder Scrolls cookbook and it's brilliant.
A good video game is immersive. It's not just fiction telling people how cool an idea is. In a game, you can show them, you can let them live it vicariously. And if they like it, maybe they'll copy it. So don't should on people. You can include natural consequences and logical consequences without nagging them out loud. Mostly focus on demonstrating why your ideas are awesome. That's a bit more challenging than a canned speech, but it works better.
Say you wanted to promote the idea that multiculturalism is good. There are studies showing a mixed group is better at problem-solving, so you could code that in as a slight advantage in the odds for a mixed party. Being polite instead of a dick similarly improves your success rate. It doesn't stop anyone from enjoying a slaughterfest if that's what they're into, but does reward those who work and play well with others.
>> Part of the problem of course is all the different meanings of what exactly "politics" is... But when you're taking is as "a persons worldview about how people should interact", then it's almost inescapable. <<
I would say, politics is about directing people en masse, and that includes a level of stratification and pushiness that goes beyond just culture.
Especially, avoid ticky-box politics. Don't be the game going "Oh look at me being all trans-inclusive this is so special!" Be the game that just doesn't put gendered rules all over everything.
It's what irritates me about woke-politics. It's all talk and little or no action, at a time we desperately need practical action. People just want to be praised for doing stuff they ought to be doing anyhow. It's a distraction that often actively gets in the way of real work, especially when people think they can tick a box and call it done. >_< Shut the fuck up and do something useful.
Which is basically what the video pointed out about games that pretend to be trans-inclusive to attract attention but really aren't.
>>When I was generating random DnD NPCs I was using D100 and broke it down like 2-50 = male, 51-99 = female, 100 = trans (secondary roll for ftm or mtf), 1 = agender.<<
Yeah, that works.
>> And it's just not a game where anything about WHO you are really matters to the gameplay. It's a puzzlegame wrapped up in an open world shell. Any sort of customization of your character is pure deco. There's no significant character relationships (having rep at doing your job at most). There's no in-built RPing, just what the player chooses to do.<<
Yep. We could, of course, build some cultures for variety, and some might be matriarchal (favors female characters, won't deal with or just disadvantage male ones) and others patriarchal (opposite).
I think reputation is worth considering, in the factual sense of deriving it from actual job performance (how fast you deliver, and your percentage of intact delivery). Reputation in a social sense doesn't always match the facts, and would only be useful in a more roleplaying game. Performance is a good thing to have for character advancement, if you don't want to use rigid levels, and I think performance would better fit a cargo game.
>> ...though it does remind me of an idea I had with my Discord friends about making a character generator that was exclusively about designing your hands in excruciating detail. If it would fit any game it would be this game where your hands are going to be central to the gameplay and the most you see about your character. :p
Yeah, if you're ever going to do that one, here's the place for it. You could do a lot with it, and still have a simpler build than a whole body. A few basic hand shapes (long and thin, beefy, squarish, pudgy, etc.) plus adornments (nail polish, hair, tattoos; you wouldn't want to wear jewelry while hauling). Have a simple 10-scale of skin tones, or more complex with a bunch of base colors and 5-6 shades of each. Freckles or not, maybe an in-game option like stripes or dapples.
Limb differences: simply include a toggle to "turn off" either hand or any of the fingers. If you added a bit more code, you could make the game harder with a macro command like "If missing 1+ fingers, adjust odds of dropping an item thusly; if missing a hand, use this amount." But you don't block a one-handed character from being a drover, because people can learn to work around stuff. Or buy a prosthetic body part to compensate.
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Re: Thoughts
Date: 2024-12-24 10:24 am (UTC)Because you need a bare minimum of "able to see where other players are in the world" unless you want things to get confusing fast.<<
Good point.
>> But yeah, customizability is optional here. I'd at least want vague humanoid shapes ala Totally Accurate Battlegrounds, <<
Then you'd need a way to distinguish them for different players, so some ability to customize would make sense.
>> but I do so love me a detailed character creator... It's hard to balance "I'd love to have this" vs "would this actually contribute to the game?" and "is it worth the time investment?". <<
Well, your enjoyment is one reason. Widening the player market is another.
Then consider how detailed it would need to be vs. how much time. What are some mods that would be simple? How complicated is that very nifty slider? And it costs nothing to make all the options available for any character. Do we need 36 versions of facial hair? Probably not, but 3-6 would be nice.
>> But no it was "hey, the next time you want to teleport someone out of danger in a hurry you don't want to risk having the wrong reflexes". Which like. Fair.<<
Totally credible threat. With Fetching, you could pull someone's organs out, unless the way magic works in a setting makes it hard to reach through someone else's personal energy. But Teleporting is delicate -- you have to get everything right at tremendous speeds or *splat*.
In fact over in Terramagne, it's one of the superpowers most prone to injury or fatality at manifestation for that reason. There are combat teleporters, but not many, and even most of them are just snatching people out of a scrum and dumping them away from it. Very very few actually use it to hurt anyone, let alone remove body parts. And part of that is the culture, because The Teleport is one of the most cohesive subcultures and very serious about presenting themselves as safe so society doesn't pitch a pogrom and try to murder them all.
>> On the other hand context can shape which of our reflexes gets expressed, and the physical difference in situation can matter a lot. On a couch with a control in your hand, wrecking cars by moving the thumbstick isn't going to translate as badly to sitting in your vehicle strapped down with your seatbelt, using a steering wheel.<<
True, that helps.
Mostly what I was thinking about was the visual effect on reflexes, where a split second can make a huge difference.
>>And ordinary life situations can mess up your reflexes too. I once almost walked out into traffic because my brain triggered my "crosswalk time" function too early. Thankfully I barely even lurched an inch before stopping myself.<<
Oh yeah.
>> Oh no y'all playing at the "professor" level while I'm sitting here in the 201 classes not exactly feeling the urge to graduate. :p
Sure, but you're the one with the video gaming experience who's learning to code. Two people with different skillsets can accomplish more than either alone, or even two people with the same skills.
>> I'd argue unless you're doing some very basic, abstract gameplay, it's hard not to put your politics into games.
If you're not doing it thoughtfully on purpose, you're doing it subconsciously. And that isn't always bad, but it means you're not putting consideration into what elements of your politics that you express.<<
To some extent this is true; people have habits of thought and interaction. If you build a society from the ground up, however, you can use a list of questions like "How does this society do X?" Most people have at least read enough history to be aware that cultures do things differently, and what some of those differences are. Like some are more peaceful or more aggressive, some are rigidly gendered and others not, etc.
Where I see a problem is, basically, proselytizing. The sexy binary is one example, which is largely thoughtless but sometimes deliberately nasty. Some trans inclusion is elegant and some is just awkward. If you want to include something, it has to feel natural and not either tacked on or just waving it in your face.
Take feminism. Bitching and harping about inclusion just irritates people. Go build a game where players can design any character they want and the NPCs have randomly generated gender per role. Action, not just talk. You don't have to say "women can do anything they want" if you build game that appeals to multiple genders and includes female characters in diverse roles.
I've been an activist since I could talk. I've done all the marching, letter writing ... nagging. But the most effective method I've found to get people saying "I did the thing" is plain old storytelling. I write scenes that make people want the things. And it's no accident that flip phones resemble the old Star Trek communicators. Hell, I've got the Elder Scrolls cookbook and it's brilliant.
A good video game is immersive. It's not just fiction telling people how cool an idea is. In a game, you can show them, you can let them live it vicariously. And if they like it, maybe they'll copy it. So don't should on people. You can include natural consequences and logical consequences without nagging them out loud. Mostly focus on demonstrating why your ideas are awesome. That's a bit more challenging than a canned speech, but it works better.
Say you wanted to promote the idea that multiculturalism is good. There are studies showing a mixed group is better at problem-solving, so you could code that in as a slight advantage in the odds for a mixed party. Being polite instead of a dick similarly improves your success rate. It doesn't stop anyone from enjoying a slaughterfest if that's what they're into, but does reward those who work and play well with others.
>> Part of the problem of course is all the different meanings of what exactly "politics" is... But when you're taking is as "a persons worldview about how people should interact", then it's almost inescapable. <<
I would say, politics is about directing people en masse, and that includes a level of stratification and pushiness that goes beyond just culture.
Especially, avoid ticky-box politics. Don't be the game going "Oh look at me being all trans-inclusive this is so special!" Be the game that just doesn't put gendered rules all over everything.
It's what irritates me about woke-politics. It's all talk and little or no action, at a time we desperately need practical action. People just want to be praised for doing stuff they ought to be doing anyhow. It's a distraction that often actively gets in the way of real work, especially when people think they can tick a box and call it done. >_< Shut the fuck up and do something useful.
Which is basically what the video pointed out about games that pretend to be trans-inclusive to attract attention but really aren't.
>>When I was generating random DnD NPCs I was using D100 and broke it down like 2-50 = male, 51-99 = female, 100 = trans (secondary roll for ftm or mtf), 1 = agender.<<
Yeah, that works.
>> And it's just not a game where anything about WHO you are really matters to the gameplay. It's a puzzlegame wrapped up in an open world shell. Any sort of customization of your character is pure deco. There's no significant character relationships (having rep at doing your job at most). There's no in-built RPing, just what the player chooses to do.<<
Yep. We could, of course, build some cultures for variety, and some might be matriarchal (favors female characters, won't deal with or just disadvantage male ones) and others patriarchal (opposite).
I think reputation is worth considering, in the factual sense of deriving it from actual job performance (how fast you deliver, and your percentage of intact delivery). Reputation in a social sense doesn't always match the facts, and would only be useful in a more roleplaying game. Performance is a good thing to have for character advancement, if you don't want to use rigid levels, and I think performance would better fit a cargo game.
>> ...though it does remind me of an idea I had with my Discord friends about making a character generator that was exclusively about designing your hands in excruciating detail. If it would fit any game it would be this game where your hands are going to be central to the gameplay and the most you see about your character. :p
Yeah, if you're ever going to do that one, here's the place for it. You could do a lot with it, and still have a simpler build than a whole body. A few basic hand shapes (long and thin, beefy, squarish, pudgy, etc.) plus adornments (nail polish, hair, tattoos; you wouldn't want to wear jewelry while hauling). Have a simple 10-scale of skin tones, or more complex with a bunch of base colors and 5-6 shades of each. Freckles or not, maybe an in-game option like stripes or dapples.
Limb differences: simply include a toggle to "turn off" either hand or any of the fingers. If you added a bit more code, you could make the game harder with a macro command like "If missing 1+ fingers, adjust odds of dropping an item thusly; if missing a hand, use this amount." But you don't block a one-handed character from being a drover, because people can learn to work around stuff. Or buy a prosthetic body part to compensate.
I think it would make the game stand out.